(I used to write a bi-weekly column, RadioRadio, for Players magazine in the Tampa Bay area. The following story appeared in 1990.)

Interview: Cleveland Wheeler

By Bob Andelman

Say what you will about Cleveland Wheeler, but for 10 years he was the king of the airwaves in Tampa Bay and recognized as one of the geniuses behind the Q Morning Zoo, one of the most successful, enduring morning radio shows in the history of the industry.

After 9 a.m. this Friday - October 19 - he'll be moving on from his a.m. perch on Q105 for another AM - WRBQ's sister station, 1380 AM. Or, more likely he'll head for greener pastures in another city.

RadioRadio conducted an exclusive interview with Wheeler last week. Here's what's happened so far, followed by comments from Wheeler and Q GM Mike Horne:

o Edens Broadcasting, parent company of Q105, elected not to renegotiate Wheeler's contract beyond its remaining 15 months. His current deal expires in December 1991.

o Wheeler had a meeting with executives of the station in which they gently inquired what he might do after the zoo had run its course, if he had any ideas. If you could do anything at all, he was asked, what would you do?

o The next day, Wheeler had another conversation with the brass. This time he was informed that Mike Elliott would replace him as host of the Q Morning Zoo. Wheeler was offered a position as host of a new morning show on 1380 AM, which would no longer simulcast the Zoo with Q105.

o Q105 issued a press release on Oct. 4 announcing that Mike Elliott would join the Q Morning Zoo. The release - received by industry publications several days before the local media - made no mention of Cleveland Wheeler.

o A partner for Elliott has been hired but had not been named by press time.

o Zoo sidekicks Bill Connolly - who has a one-year contract - and Shauna Stevens - who has no contract - will be retained on the Zoo.

What's ironic in all this is that Wheeler, 42, was off the air for two months earlier this year in a ploy that essentially forced the station to choose between him and afternoon man Mason Dixon, who was also operations manager. The two had been locked in an intense, distasteful, public spitting match for years. Q105 shocked many observers when it fired Dixon and the rest of his air staff/program managers, Brian Christopher and Bobby Rich. Slowly, the rest of the air staff - with the exception of Wheeler and Ron "Night Train" Lane - also departed. A new promotions director, John O'Rourke, came and went in a matter of months.

The station went without an air personalities for a time as the music format was retooled and modernized. New slogans were introduced: "A Better Mix of Music"; "Just Q It." Wheeler came back on the air but the process of hiring a new slate of air talent to fill out the rest of the broadcast day took six months. In the interim, even the loyalist of listeners lost patience and began spinning the dial in search of fresh sources of entertainment.

The Q's ratings crashed and burned. The brash Power Pig won a rash of new listeners early on but couldn't maintain its inordinate gains. More and more disaffected Q listeners became full-time fans of their second choice stations, including WUSA (101), WNLT (95.7), WXTB (98) and WYNF (95).

Somewhere along the line, WRBQ's honchos lost confidence in Wheeler.

I asked Wheeler if he doesn't now wish the station had fired him along with Dixon in March - rather than let him dangle in a still wind for six months.

"You have to believe the people pulling the strings are making the right decisions," he says. "I thought, once the smoke cleared, those in charge would make sure we were doing the right thing. You have to have blind faith. ... I don't know if they needed me to fill a gap, a recognition factor, but I wish they had been more upfront with me. 'You go your way, we'll go ours in a few months.' I don't know why they went through all these meetings (to renegotiate a contract) with me and then two months later decide not to renegotiate. I can't help but think this was on their mind then."

Q105 General Manager Mike Horne says it was never his intention to build the station around Wheeler after Dixon, Bobby Rich and Brian Christopher were fired in March.

"You never win when you build around one person," says Horne. "The reason we brought Cleveland back - we didn't let any people go because of what they were doing on the air. It was because they were the management team. Cleveland was the only guy on the air who wasn't part of the management team. There wasn't any thought not to bring him back."

Horne says Wheeler's contract is too expensive to simply be bought out.

"You got a quarter of a million dollars in your pocket?" he asks. "We paid Mason off because there was no way he'd report to someone over him. We're paying a guy (Wheeler) to do mornings and we're hopeful we can realize something from that investment. Just paying him off and letting him go his own way is like throwing money down the toilet. We're not in a position to do that. We're hoping he'll look at it as a challenge."

Wheeler disputes the $250,000 figure, incidentally.

"It's more than that," he says without elaborating.

This won't be the last time I describe Horne as the most second-guessed man in Tampa Bay.

"I probably will continue to be," he admits. "I have no problem with that as long as the results are there in the end."

Horne says the fragmenting of the old Q audience - particularly the inability of a single station to attract the bulk of former 105 listeners - creates a window of opportunity for Mike Elliott and the new Q Morning Zoo.

"There was ample opportunity for any number of stations to drive a stake through our hearts. Nobody did it. That's going to prove to be a mistake, long-term," says Horne.

He won't say it directly, but there's no mistaking Wheeler's feeling that the station's moves are a cold slap in the face after a decade of building the Q into a money-making, community-driven radio station, one of the best-known and richest in the country.

"It's like a divorce," he says. "We just don't love each other anymore.

"I don't know if 'respect' is the right word. I don't know if there's a lot of recognition of what's been accomplished here. The Zoo - it happened so long ago they can't conjure up the feeling. They forgot the Museum of Broadcasting (which enshrined Wheeler and the Q Zoo a few years ago), the community, the household name, the magic. ... We lost some of that magic. Along with that may go the respect, the recognition and the how-to, the soul.

"I think these people are just passing through a troubled phase that they haven't experienced for a decade. They're trying to undo the wrongs and make sure the rights are extra-right.

"Philosophically," says Wheeler, "I perceive (Edens Broadcasting VP of Programming) Garry Wall probably has a certain sound in his mind for the station. I believe that going back to square one for Q105 ... They should have made stronger moves to integrate the music so it would appeal to the 25 to 54 audience they fragmented so badly."

As late as Saturday, Oct. 13, Wheeler hadn't had direct talks with anyone in management at Q105 regarding his future, although his agent has had ongoing conversations with the station's attorneys. It's possible that by the time you read this, Wheeler's contract may have been bought out or some agreement reached to end his employment immediately following his last broadcast on Friday.

Or ... Oct. 22 could be a new chapter in the never-dull saga of Cleveland Wheeler, Tampa Bay radio personality.

"It's our intention to air dual morning shows," says Horne. "I'm not saying Cleveland is a bad morning personality. The direction the station is taking and Cleveland's contract are growing apart. What do we have to lose by having Cleveland on the AM? Our intention is to move Cleveland to the AM. It won't be a Zoo. It'll be a more mature show in music and presentation. We have a commitment to Cleveland that runs through December 1991. Our goal is to have him create something for us that will get some listeners on 1380 AM."

"I will accept whatever assignment they give me," says Wheeler. "This is kind of a Mexican standoff. I'm going to sit here and collect my money."

In other words, it takes two to make a contract and one to break it. Wheeler isn't going to be the one to blink.

"That's what I'm saying."

Don't confuse intentions and desires, though.

"Anybody who would deserve to be kicked off the FM and go to the AM and start a prototype would be an idiot in terms of his career," says Wheeler. "I don't want any of my comrades to think, 'He's all washed up.' You do what you have to do. I have a lot of other options out there I could pursue rather than disappear into a closet. Anyone can determine AM is not one of the places you turn to to listen to music unless it was recorded in a garage. I might do myself considerable damage if I thought I was going to create something that would cause people to go back to AM and shut down FM stations.

"If I were (Q105 management), with this new guy coming in, and I wanted this to be clean and neat, I'd want to make a deal. If it were me, I'd be gone this week."

What if Wheeler balks at the AM assignment?

"This decision is in his hands," says Horne. "We don't run a slave labor camp. We can't force the guy to work. We intend to continue paying him to do a morning show."

Horne may or may not be bluffing on the AM assignment. It's hard to tell.

"People will listen to hear what Cleveland has to say," according to Horne. "Cleveland is a very intelligent person. He is extremely opinionated and very articulate. If it's a good program, they'll listen. Does it have a chance to succeed as (well as) a good FM does? Probably not. But if we get a 1 or higher, it increases the value of our product tremendously."

The plan is to have Wheeler on AM in the morning then revert to simulcasting the FM the rest of the day. "If this works," says Horne, "it might be the launching of the AM. One of my long-term goals at this radio station is to figure out a way to maximize the value of that AM signal. Two years from now, we will not be simulcasting."

If Wheeler does turn up on the AM, don't expect the usual bells and whistles, tookie birds and elaborate production bits.

And don't expect a talk show.

"Talk is kind of a grinding thing," says Wheeler. "There was a time when we built a lot of numbers on talk and controversy. We were the best talk show in town. But then the seasons changed and people said, 'Shut the fuck up!' I don't think I could do talk all the time."

Music will be the name of Wheeler's game, a return to his roots if he accepts the compulsory assignment.

"But who listens to AM for music?" he wonders. "The quality isn't there. You've got all those Cubans beating against you, and Radio Marti."

Wheeler says phone gags will be a thing of the past.

"I won't have a phone. There's a pay phone down the hall. And I won't be using the coffee machine because it costs 10 cents a cup if you're not on the FM. And I'll have to pay a quarter to use the FM bathrooms since I'll now be on the AM."

But seriously, Cleveland ...

"The question to me was, if you could do anything in radio, what would you do? ... It's going to be music, an alternative from the humdrum. If you're tired of hearing the same 15 country, CHR or AOR songs - it'll be different. Probably a little more subtle and cerebral humor. I want to get away from produced humor. I want to get back to people. I'm going to ask listeners to participate in the show, musically. What have you got in your library? Let's play it. Why not have a reggae day? A Beatles day? The best jazz - sometimes I listen to the Wave - do they know what jazz is? For once you might hear Cleveland Wheeler keeping his mouth shut. I might change my name. I might have a new name everyday. ... When I told them this, they said, 'Hmmmm.' When I next spoke to them and they said I was going to be replaced, they said, 'How would you like to go to the AM?' So this, I assume, is what I'll do."

If he does make the band switch, don't expect fireworks, TV advertising campaigns or direct mail brochures. Know he's there or forget about him.

"How long is Cleveland supposed to do this?" wonders Wheeler. "What happens after 15 months if I bring the ratings up to a 4? (It's currently less than 1.) Do I continue?"

Reaction! Here's what the local radio industry thinks about the Cleveland Wheeler/Q105 situation:

Marc Chase, program director and morning team member, WFLZ (93 FM): "I expected it. I knew it was happening. The people running the station have been at odds with Cleveland and wanted his removal. (In fact, the Power Pig ran a "Q Can Cleveland Countdown Calendar" in which listeners picked the date Wheeler would be fired. Winner got a trip to the Bahamas.)

"When we (the Power Pig) came on, Q was a great station. They were great news/talk, CHR, AC, sports. They were wearing so many hats ... You can't be the number one station to everybody everyday anymore. You have to find your core. But Q105 has completely blown off their core. We came in very focused, very driven. It was easy to create a niche. There was a win/win situation available for both of us.

"Their theory - what I'm told - they felt if they stayed where they were, we'd broaden and we'd be in a world of hurt. Then they decided to imitate the Power Pig. Musically first, and then they brought in DJs to imitate the Power Pig, but not as good.

"I don't think they did anything positive from day one. The brightest person they had was (former program director) Randy Kabrich. He was the first person they asked to leave.

"The Pig was the catalyst. The release of Mason Dixon was the writing on the wall. There were internal rivalries. Garry Wall arrived and he and Mason didn't get along and he and Cleveland didn't get along.

"I think they're down to the last line of defense by getting rid of Cleveland. I expect them to make a change.

"I've got a feeling somebody's going to put out a book on marketing and go back to 1990 when one of the great faux pas was made."

Jon Pinch, president and general manager, WNLT (95.7 FM) and WHBO (1040 AM): "I don't quite understand it. I guess they're desperate. We beat them for the first time 25 to 54. I attribute that to a lot of growth from their old listeners.

"As far as this move with Cleveland - the guy from Orlando is part of a team. I don't know how he'll do by himself.

"Cleveland was gone for two months. They changed the format on him. Listeners had to wade through music they weren't fond of to listen to Cleveland's humor. Then he didn't fit in with their scheme.

"Cleveland was a class act. He's an excellent radio talent. I think taking him off the air is another mistake. I'm starting to feel sorry for them. At first it was fun. Now it's strange.

"If he does the AM bit, he won't be there very long. He's too good of a talent to waste his time and mayhem on a .1 share.

"In our business, they say if a competitor comes after you, hold your ground. (Q105) over-reacted and did strange things. It obviously hurt them. Their billing is probably one-third what it was. They were a dynasty. It hurt us in the past because Q105 was so dominant with their personalities. Now it's a whole different radio station, fresh personalities, fresh slogans. I'm more concerned about (competition from) other people. They're history."

Shawn Portmann, vice president and general manager, WYNF (95 FM): "I was never the kind who, when I was in a fight and the other guy was down to kick him. I think he's a decent talent. Maybe he got away from got him there, but as an individual talent, he's okay. He got out of touch.

"I would imagine he would be hard-pressed to - financially - find something equal to what he has with Edens. You don't come off an 0-and-10 season and get a higher paying job. He might want to make something happen on the AM and then go out.

"I wish the guy well. I hope things begin to go right for him."

Blake Lawrence, program director and afternoon personality, WHVE (102.5 FM): "I wasn't surprised. Noooooo. Not at all. I thought he would leave, just from being frustrated.

"I know him. He's a nice guy. Cleveland has done a good job, he's done a lot for the community, a tremendous amount. He's good for the community because he's really wired into it.

"I think he's been great. I don't know that I'd let him leave.

"It seems they've taken a long time to put an air staff together - probably too long - and it's showing in the ratings. And they're playing too much dance music. They're over-serving a narrow audience."

Greg Mull, program director, WXTB (98 FM): "The couple times I listened, there wasn't any magic left at all. Obviously it had to be great at one time to get the numbers (Wheeler) had.

"Self-destruct is what they did. Even though the Power Pig came in, they did things to drive themselves down further. I've never seen a station do that. When they changed their music, I was surprised.

"All I can say is I hope they bring in somebody good and it takes off fast. Because I think this market needs a real good Top 40 morning show."

Scott Robbins, program director and morning personality, WYUU (92 FM): "The only thing I can say is ... unbelievable. The whole thing is unbelievable. Unbelievable! (Laughs.) Oh, God! (More laughs.) I don't know what to say. You have to wonder if they haven't shot themselves in the foot a second time.

"Mason - I'm sure he'll be kicking his feet in the air.

"I wish Cleveland luck. I respect anyone who has achieved what he has."

Three Little Pigs Update! Marc Chase is remarkably forthright in assessing his Power Pig morning show in light of Wheeler's departure.

"We aren't as good as we can be," he says. "We have to improve our morning show. Jack, Doc and I have to get better. Getting us to jell is something we work on everyday.

"Right now, Ron & Ron are it. They're not undefeatable but they've done great work."

Adieu to You! Blake Lawrence is the latest air talent to announce his departure from the Wave (WHVE 102.5 FM). At press time the station's program director would only hint he was headed for a "major market programming job," but wouldn't say where.

"I've been here for four years. I hate to leave," he says. "But it was a great opportunity that I couldn't pass up."

Call Letter Change! As we suggested it might several weeks ago, Sports Radio 910 has changed its call letters and address. Goodbye WPLA and PLAnt City. Hello, WFNS in Tampa!

Cripes, More Q News! Michael Osterhout, Q105 GM during its glory days and now president of parent company Edens Broadcasting during its continuing nightmare, was reappointed as chairman of the National Association of Broadcasters Group Radio Committee for 1990-1991.

Elsewhere! Scott Shannon's "Pirate Radio" ratings are in the dumper out in Los Angeles. Cleveland Wheeler's former partner and co-founder of the Zoo literally fell off the map in the latest book. ... Shannon's syndicated "Rockin' America" countdown show has moved from Q105 to the Power Pig, incidentally. It can now be heard Sunday mornings from 7-10 a.m. ... Tim and Tom, the nighttime tag team at the Power Pig, refer to the Q's Johnny D as "Johnny P." And we hear the staff at the Q themselves call him "Johnny P.P." ... Yes, folks, all the important news, you'll read about it here, first. ... Speaking of Tim and Tom, it's true, they were almost on their way to Dallas. Marc Chase was even soliciting air check tapes to find a replacement. But now the T-boys have decided to stick around. ... Wheeler's departure from the FM leaves only Ron "Night Train" Lane as one of the oldtimers. "He's a pro," says GM Mike Horne. "He'll be there as long as he wants to be." ... WEND (760 AM) has picked up University of Tampa men's basketball and St. Petersburg Pelicans baseball for fall broadcast. UT games kick off Nov. 19. The End will also carry a coach's call-in show every Thursday at 6 p.m. beginning Nov. 15. ... We hear W101 news gal Kelly Dobbs plays polo with Gay Culverhouse of the Tampa Bay Bucs and goes on fox hunts. ... Again, all the news that spits. ... WHVE (102.5 FM) has begun an all-request hour starting weekdays at 1 p.m. Other station programming notes include the live Acoustic Alchemy broadcast from the Caravan of Dreams in Fort Worth, Tx. on Oct. 30 at 10 p.m. ... Anybody remember Jones & Hairdresser, the short-lived morning team at 98 Rock? They've gone back to New Haven, Ct., from whence they came.

Please, Mr. Postman! You probably know the address and fax number by heart, judging by the volume of mail we get. But for any latecomers in the crowd, here's where to reach us: RadioRadio, c/o Players, PO Box 1867, Pinellas Park, FL 34664. The fax line is (813) 578-1400. Remember what Casey says: "Keep your hands in your pockets and keep reaching for the stars!"